Episode 3 After Survival

Episode 3: After Survival

Surviving is only part of the story. What happens after the crisis ends? In this episode of Outside the Footnotes, Wendy, Klynn, and Courtney explore what it means to rebuild, heal, rediscover identity, and move forward after life's most difficult experiences. Join us for an honest conversation about resilience, growth, and finding purpose beyond survival.

We'd love to hear your thoughts and your story.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:13

You gotta consent.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

Okay. Just off the top of the block, we're gonna introduce Courtney. Hello, everybody.

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I just had to consent to being recorded, and I feel quite kinky.

SPEAKER_04 0:28

Son of a biscuit eating dinosaur. Here we go, guys. Here we go.

SPEAKER_02 0:34

I feel bad for everybody that has to listen to us that doesn't get to see how cute Kaylin looks right now.

SPEAKER_04 0:39

Oh well, thank you. He likes that Dara bottom. She does. Okay. So Kaylin, um, we're gonna start it out. Uh shit.

SPEAKER_00 0:51

We're gonna banter.

SPEAKER_04 0:53

You know what? We should just let's just well, yeah, I know. Let's just naturally start. We already know we don't know how to banter. Courtney here, though, although knows she knows how to banter really well. Courtney is joining us, everybody. Say hi to everybody.

SPEAKER_02 1:07

Hi Courtney. Hi Courtney. I am the Oz behind the drape, here to watch them. She's she's here to watch us, but she might also be able to do that. Oh, I'm gonna have opinions. I never do not have opinions. But I'm gonna try to mute myself so that I can fully engage in this and and feel it and hear it. I love that.

SPEAKER_04 1:30

All right, so uh Kaylin. Uh, we received an email that I want to discuss with you. Oh, an email. Are you ready to hear it? Courtney, feel free to weigh in on this email. I'm gonna read you the email. Give me one second. All right. Bubbles is being very vocal.

SPEAKER_02 1:53

She's also a voyer and listening from behind the scenes. I am bubbles.

SPEAKER_04 2:01

All right, so I know bubbles. It's okay. Jennifer sent us an email. She said, so I just listened to your first first podcast and wanted to first say hi, Wendy. We've been friends on TikTok for many years. My question about this podcast is do you think toxic masculinity has caused bullying to be a big problem in our younger society? What do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 2:26

That's a really good question. I guess I never tied bullying to toxic masculinity, but I can I can kind of see that because I think that unfortunately the targets of bullying are viewed as weak. And especially uh, you know, among boys, there's this idea if a boy has what we'd have deemed feminine qualities, that they would become a target. They're weak, uh, they're a sissy, which is a derogatory term, and I'm not encouraging people to use that term, but yeah, I guess bullying could definitely be part of toxic masculinity, and that whole system could definitely encourage that. Um, you know, like kind of like the strong survive mentality.

SPEAKER_04 3:10

So the question, when I read her question, the question I asked myself was um, what was the reasoning for bullying? Right was it to be that superior person? Is it because you're being made to feel less superior? Is it because you're getting that at home? And you feel like you have to be on top? Like that, I think that's like a even a bigger question in and of itself that could honestly like we could do a whole topic on bullying.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

Yes, I agree. Um, so thank you, Jennifer, for the question. I I mean, I would say yes to all three, potentially, right? Um obviously, I think unfortunately with bullying, there is this sense that there's a hierarchy, right? So the bully is obviously on top and picks on those below or below quote. I'm quote, I'm doing air quotes. I know you guys can't see me, but Wendy and Courtney can. Um so yeah, I guess in that sense, I know we often talk about that bullies may feel inferior and that's why they bully. I don't know. I guess we have to ask a reformed bully if that's how they feel. I guess we we've assumed that for a long time, but I don't know that answer. If if that's the example at home. So if they have a parent or both parents are bullies, and that's that's what they had learned, absolutely. I that could absolutely be a symptom as well. So I would have to say yes to all three.

SPEAKER_04 4:37

Yeah, I think toxic masculinity could definitely be a factor in bullying as well. Without a doubt. A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 4:46

Yeah, it's it's the same idea. Right.

unknown 4:49

Right.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Thank you.

SPEAKER_04 4:50

Thank you, Jennifer, for the email. We love it. If anybody else would love to send us an email with additional questions or anything that the podcast made them think about in that moment, feel free to. Our email address is outside the footnote at gmail.com. It is also listed in our bio and within our show description. So, Kaylin, how is your week?

SPEAKER_00 5:16

It's been good. So, um, again, I was watching a Netflix documentary, Unknown Number. Um, is the main title. Oh, the one I told you to watch last week. You guys, what'd you think?

SPEAKER_03 5:29

Tell me about it. Insane. Insane.

SPEAKER_00 5:32

I still even wrap my head around this. So the uh so Unknown Number is about a bullying situation, a very severe cyberbullying situation where um a young girl was bullied and it turns out to be, I'm just gonna say, someone extremely, extremely close that way, wait, wait, wait, full disclosure, full, full disclosure, she might ruin it.

SPEAKER_04 5:59

So if you I said extremely close.

SPEAKER_00 6:02

I'm not giving I'm doing I'm trying not to give spoilers. Extremely close. Someone you would never expect that would do that. Um, and it's the ultimate betrayal. It is the ultimate betrayal, and absolutely definitely like I feel like there needs to be a part two to see what happens after all is said and done and what the healing process looks like in that situation, which actually leads into our topic today, so which is about surviving after surviving after a toxic situation. Welcome to Outside the Footnotes, the podcast where we explore the perspectives, experiences, and questions that often get overlooked in larger conversations. Today's topic, as I said before, is healing after toxic relationships. When we talk about healing, we often talk about um recognizing unhealthy patterns that we're in the situation, setting boundaries, and then finding the strength and ability to leave that situation. And those matter, but here at Outside the Footnotes, we're always asking what's missing from the discussion, what happens after you leave this toxic situation, and what happens once the crisis is over and that you're no longer in survival mode. For many people, the healing isn't really about recovering from the toxic relationship, it's the actual recovery period. We develop certain habits and fears and coping mechanisms to survive those relationships. And sometimes those stick around and they actually become part of our identity.

SPEAKER_04 7:48

And sometimes the hardest part of healing isn't leaving. Sometimes it's realizing you've changed. Maybe you're less trusting than you once were. Maybe you're more guarded, maybe you're stronger in some ways and hurting in others, maybe you miss the person you used to be.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Who are you when you're no longer surviving? Today we'll explore what survival costs us, why healing is both liberating and painful. How do we grieve the parts of ourselves that we've lost in this relationship, and what it means to learn to love the person that we are becoming? So I'm your host, Kaylin. And I'm Wendy. And our guest is Courtney. Let's get started. So unhealthy relationships require adaptation. And it doesn't matter if it is a romantic partner, a friend, a parent, or other family member, an employer, or somebody in the community. We have to develop strategies to survive in these difficult environments. And I myself have even adopted some of these strategies. So we might walk on eggshells, so we are we're very careful if this person is explosive. We don't want to trigger them. We become hyper-vigilant, so we're always looking for the danger signs. People pleasing, which is I was falling into that big time in a situation. Emotional suppression. I am the Olympic gold medal winner in emotional suppression.

SPEAKER_04 9:19

Hey, I will I will pen you with the medal, Bill.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

I will pen you with the we often avoid conflict when we're in toxic situations, and then we become who others need us to be, which is part of people pleasing. All right. So, Wendy, what does survival mode mean to you?

SPEAKER_04 9:40

Okay, so that's a good question. Um, I have been in multiple situations where survival mode has been necessary from a very young age, uh, when growing up and not being able to show my emotions or um even have the support that I think we all need and to learn to shrink myself in order to appease the people around me. Like that's very much a survival mode. Um, and to relationships where you learn just to not say how you feel or speak um the things that are on your mind, or even change who you are as a person because you feel like you're gonna be more acceptable to them and maybe they'll be a little bit nicer because you are made to feel like it's your fault.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

Yeah, I can relate to that. Yeah, definitely. Um so have you have you realized like in that moment in that relationship that you were kind of adapting as opposed to participating in the relationship? I would say, I would definitely say yes.

SPEAKER_04 10:51

No, I don't I don't think most people, I don't think most people know until they know. I think we become so love struck. We become so enamored and engaged in the relationship that we think we're in, even though it's not what we're in. And then we also we we love the person and we find ways to actually like make excuses for them to um I don't know, even sometimes blame ourselves, and even if we're not blaming ourselves, but to think that we can change it. Do you know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_01 11:25

Yeah, I want to hear Courtney on this.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

We justify it a hundred percent. Why do we do that? Why do you think we justify those well?

SPEAKER_04 11:36

I don't think we want to see it as that. We don't want to see, we don't want to see it for what it is. We we are sitting in this world where we're ideali, we're we're ha my word, my, my, my mouth's not mouthing, where we idealize, um we idealize the idea of the relationship, what we think it can be, what we want it to be. And we put the person that we're with, I think, on some sort of pedestal that we don't allow ourselves to see them for who they truly are.

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Yeah. So like we see the potential, but not the reality of the situation. I think that's a big one. Um, I think for me, a big part of it too is like it's kind of that whole failure is not an option, um, where you just it has to work out, right? In your mind, like you just want it to work out so bad that you're like, no, it has to work out. Or I think there's a lot, and like you talked about the self-blame. If it doesn't work out, well, I'm I'm I'm a I'm the failure. Not that the relationship failed, I'm a failure.

SPEAKER_02 12:40

And as like fixers, people that are fixers, like that's my big issue. I would try, because I learned at a young age to fix everything and everybody. So I wanted to fix it. So even if it was destructive and toxic and violent and abusive, it was like you still had to fix, still had to fix. Like you get into this role. Like you just said you don't want to fail.

SPEAKER_04 13:03

So, Courtney, so Courtney, do you think that the fixer came from a relationship with your family that was toxic, that you had to go into survival mode? Because I think that being a fixer is 100% a survival mode kind of attribute.

SPEAKER_02 13:22

And I think how we're raised makes us obviously who we are and how we react and what we see and what we knew to be true and like what we what our normal is. Like if you grew up around, let's say, name calling and then you have it in your current relationship, it's like you know the characters, you know the players. Like it's easier to say because you know what this person's gonna do because you've seen you what happens. It's gonna blow up, it's gonna be crazy, but you at least have the safety of knowing that that's what it that's what's gonna happen because you know the players. It feels more comfortable to be unsafe because you're used to that. And yes, I've been learning about that recently with myself. I think fixers are are made at a young age. But yeah, I think that when when Kaelin said that the failure part, it's like you just want to keep trying, like you just want to keep fixing, like, because if you keep trying and you keep fixing, you can fix it.

SPEAKER_04 14:20

But you much go indeed in that. Yeah, that's a totally a survival strategy.

SPEAKER_00 14:25

And to what what to what Courtney said about, you know, you know the players, it's kind of like the devil you know versus the devil you don't know. You would rather risk everything with the person you're familiar with, even if you know it's not gonna work, versus this person who you don't really know. Because you know the next move.

SPEAKER_02 14:44

You know what's gonna happen, you know how it's gonna play out.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

I agree.

SPEAKER_04 14:48

So it is, but you've got to break that cycle. Oh, yeah, eventually, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:53

So on the one hand, so you're saying you know how it's gonna play out, right? So you're you've got these people in their positions, they're gonna do what they're gonna do. But there's also but isn't there also kind of hope that they might do something different? Yes, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 15:08

It's the hurtful hope cycle. Yeah, 100%. You know what's gonna happen, but like of course, you're there to like, I mean, you don't want to be in it, but yeah, it's definitely a double-edged sword.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

It's like you want different, but you you know how it's like part of your brain, it's like you have this hope, but then you also have the reality of what's gonna happen. And so interesting. So having mentioned these survival strategies above, what um, Wendy and Courtney, what survival strategies have you observed in yourself and others? I can tell you like the people pleasing was a big one for me. Emotional suppression is like my number one. That is something I really am working hard to not do anymore. And conflict avoidance, I think is all those would be my top three.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Oh, I'm a hundred percent conflict avoidance. I I I shrink myself.

SPEAKER_03 16:02

I like feeling space right now. I like how you look like that. We've seen me cry. Listen, we're talking about we're listening you could call them lies, you could call them lies. I've seen you crying years.

SPEAKER_04 16:18

We're talking 20 plus, we're talking about 20 plus years of therapy that have gotten me to the point where I can have conflict. I used to avoid it at all costs. I used to be a huge people pleaser. I used to shrink myself to the point that I would wear baggy clothes so nobody would notice. I would always have a hat pulled down, I wouldn't make eye contact with others. I was very much that shrinked person. Do you know what I'm saying? And then, you know, the eggshells, the people pleasing. Oh, I was the biggest people pleaser. And Courtney, to your point of being a fixer, I used to always be a fixer too. I was the first one to jump in the middle of any conflict to try to avoid stop it or or create a resolution to it. And I've those are all the things that I've learned through years of therapy not to do anymore. But I'm not gonna say that I don't backslide. Um, I do backslide. I backslide a lot with um some relationships that have meant a lot to me. I've backslid a lot when it came to family members, but I think we can't punch ourselves for backsliding. We have to stand up and we have to say, you know what? I'm I'm gonna keep pushing forward and learning.

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yeah. What about you, Courtney? I don't know. What survival strategies have you employed?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Oh God. I'm looking at my notes from internalizers versus externalizers. I had no intention of being in this either. I was supposed to be in the shower. And as we all know, I never showered. We all know you're always supposed to be in the shower. I'm always supposed to be in the shower. Yeah. But like now, we're talking about this. So like always. I'm reading this little thing that I had in my notes that said coping styles develop as adaptations to emotionally immature parenting, like depending on what helped the child feel safe or most accepted. So, like something for me. Um like getting in between my parents' bullshit, right? That was me feeling accepted though, because like that was my role, right? So then you end up doing like internalizers or externalizers. So like internalizers, they tend to turn distress inward instead of like going out to other people. They blame themselves, they become anxious, they try to fix and work harder to be good enough. Um, they they are though highly self-reflective, sensitive, and responsible. But then there's like externalizers that blame others, act out, turn distress outwards, often struggle with impulse control. Like, I think that like internalizers often become like parentified children, like overly responsible, anxious, focused on others' needs. Like, I again, I have been in a handful of toxic relationships where survival was the key thing, but I feel like it's all back to like where we came from and how we learned to adjust to that because nobody wants to stay. Like you watch a movie and you see somebody doing something horrible to somebody, and you're like, get out, bitch! Like, run, like, you know, you want to save them. But like when you're in it, you're in it. So I think it comes back to what we have normalized and what regulates and dysregulates our nervous system, even if it's unhealthy and unsafe. Like in something could be unsafe and still regulate your emotions because of how you learn to do that at a young age. So I don't think anyone wants to be in these abusive relationships. I think they just end up trying their hardest. Um, how I survived it, I have no fucking idea. I'm a fucking funny bloody bitch. Like, I don't know. I just survived on the screen of my teeth and a lot of self-reflection and just trying to be self-aware and then having to learn boundaries to like see the warning signs and not put up with the shit going forward. Red flags, pay attention instead of you know, running towards them, even though my favorite color is red, and I tend to run towards red.

SPEAKER_04 20:14

Do you do you think that we do you think like when when you come from an abusive childhood environment, one where you're not you don't feel safe, do you think that we just constantly chase that cycle? Because that's kind of what I'm hearing you say. Like we chase that cycle until we break it, right?

SPEAKER_02 20:35

I don't, but like if you look at the last like handful of solid relationships that I had, like eight years, six years, six years, five years, they all are copy paste, but it all presented differently at first. So I don't know that I chased it because I didn't see it seek it out. You know, like nobody, but I think you I don't know what's the word.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Subconsciously, but when you were talking, you were talking about going to the familiar, when you were talking about going to the familiar players, right? We choose familiar players because we know how to judge what's gonna happen. So I mean, kind of in a way, we are we are chasing after the cycle because we choose familiar players. Even though we don't know it, our nervous system does. Yeah, subconsciously.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

We attach. Maybe it's that that we chase, because I think this is this is just my thought. We encounter many different people throughout our lives, right? It's who we choose to keep around, right? And who we choose to let go of. And maybe even if it's unconscious, if you're in that cycle, when you encounter those people, it's like like Courtney, you were talking about that familiarity, right? You know the players. So maybe it's just that when these people come into our lives, we're like, oh, this is just like, you know, when I was a kid and this happened. Is it kind of maybe like that? Is it uh chasing? I don't know about it.

SPEAKER_02 22:00

I feel like the beginning of every relationship is all like, you know, I hate to say it, but like love bombing. And you're Yeah, you're not going to be able to do that. Shooting out of your ass. Everybody's putting their best foot forward. So I don't think you see it. Like I don't think it's something that you naturally see at first. I think that the problem is, is once the problems arise, instead of being like, this is my worth and this is what I know is bad and this isn't good. And I'm going to either have a conversation and be respected and leave it, or the people that stay and try to fix it. Cause to you, like I none of these people that I've dated were like just acting like that in the beginning for me to feel comfortable around it. You know, it it came later after it was worked. But I also, my personality.

SPEAKER_04 22:47

Do you think self- Do you think self-worth plays a role in it? Because I I know in my world. Absolutely. In my world, like I was lacking a lot of confidence coming out of that, that I didn't have the self-worth. And that, like I said, I've been in therapy for so many years that I've learned to find that self-worth. It's still very hard. I still have times where I sit back and I think, oh, am I doing the wrong thing? But at the end of the day, I mean, I think our nervous systems, especially if we don't hold that, or no, I'm not going to say especially if we don't hold that. I'm going to say that our nervous systems are so programmed and used to a certain way of living, especially when it's been all you've known your entire life, that your self-worth is something you have to work on. And I'm sorry to all you people out there that have amazing self-worth that don't know how this feels like about you, because I worked really hard to get mine. And I still struggle with it at times. I still sometimes think to myself, am I making myself too big for the it? Should I shrink myself because this person should get more? And I have to really like sit down. I've learned a lot about sitting down and and creating lists. Uh, Courtney, I think I talked to you about that. Make a list of everything you love about this person that they bring to you, and make a list of everything, the ways that they hurt you, because I have to do that in order to visually see. I do that too.

SPEAKER_02 24:15

I will see the good in fucking anybody unless you fuck with animals, then I'm gonna fuck with you and I'm gonna fuck you up. Fuck off.

SPEAKER_00 24:21

All right, good. Fuck you. All right. And on that note, you have to honor it because all these strategies that we've developed, um, and we all have developed them. Um, they have they've helped us kind of endure and get through these relationships. So, what is the cost? So, as we talk about this, what what does this cost you?

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Your soul, your time, and your energy on this fucking planet.

SPEAKER_00 24:43

Okay. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 24:47

It costs me trust. I have a very hard time trusting people. I have a very hard time believing people's intentions are what they say they are. I I actually have a very hard time of seeing the good in people nowadays. Lately, I I always wonder what does somebody want from me? What are they trying to get from me? What are they sucking out of the life soul that I have left? And I that's a horrible way to look at life. I understand it is, but it is the way that I approach every situation, every new relationship, friendship, romantic. I look at it like, yeah, what do you want from me?

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah. So we make these trade-offs, right? And like you said, you know, you lose confidence, you lose, you know, even friendships, right? If the situation's unhealthy enough that certain people walk away from you, I could tell you, um, I was in a work education, we'll call it work education situation where I lost a lot of my confidence and trust in myself. Like I was like, I made the worst decision of my life. What was I doing? Um, your interests, personal goals, and your true self, right? You sacrifice, you kind of get hollowed out, right? And you don't even like know who you are, right? Which is the whole point of this discussion. Who are we after? So, what parts of ourselves are most vulnerable to being lost? Wendy.

SPEAKER_04 26:06

Oh, toxic relationship, I'd say the most vulnerable. I mean, obviously, we're gonna lose confidence. That happens. We're gonna lose self-worth, but I think the most, the biggest thing that we actually lose is our self-identity. Because we have to become somebody that we are not in order to appease the person that we are with that doesn't accept us for our authentic self. And we have to become something we're not. We have to trade off our authentic, genuine identity to become the identity that they want. And I think that that is devastating because it's happened to me on so many occasions where I've had to relearn who I am.

SPEAKER_00 26:52

What does that mean when we like what you say? You lose parts of yourself and your identity. Can you give an example? Oh, um, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 27:01

So I used to be wide-eyed and bushy-tailed, thinking that the world was fantastic, that everybody was full of love, and everybody had the best intentions, right? I had this idealistic idea of who I could be and where I was going, and I could accomplish everything. I was this wide-eyed, creative. I I draw, I wrote poetry, and throughout the relationships I've been in, I've seen things. I'm trying to gain them. Yeah, like I'm trying to gain them back, but I but I was in relationships where I wasn't allowed to be bigger or better than the other person. I wasn't allowed to be more successful, I wasn't allowed to be me. I wasn't allowed to be unique. I was I was made or meant to be what they wanted, and that individuality, individuality was lost. And when the individu in my mouth is not mouthing today when the individuality is lost, I bet you will. I'm gonna leave it out.

SPEAKER_00 28:15

We'll give you the we'll give you the original, we'll send the original.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

No, I like it. Leave it in. That's what she's saying.

SPEAKER_04 28:22

Anyways, we might leave it in. Who knows? Leave it in. Leave it in. Leave it in. Um individuality. So when individuality is lost, when you lose that side of you that defines you, right? You don't really know who you are anymore because you become the I become the person dating so-and-so. I become so-and-so's child. I'm no longer me.

SPEAKER_02 28:49

And I also think when you do that, like you lose passion for things because you're so hurt and upset and you're overthinking. Yeah. That all the things that make you you suffer because you tone it down because you're invested in fixing everything back to that. But like when you were just asking what you lost, you lose other relationships and in terms of friends or family, because I didn't let people at my house for like a year and a half. I would come up with a reason for them not to come over because I didn't want them to know that they were still in my house. And so then those those relationships suffer. So like you lose friendships, you lose community, you lose your and like Wendy's talking about individuality, all the things that made her her, like poetry and this and that, and all the things that she likes. You don't want to do it because you're fucking depressed, dealing with all this other fucking angst and rage and sadness and depression and trying to work at something that is broken.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Your life force gets depleted. Yeah, exactly. I can remember after I left my situation, which I could have easily left long before it got to uh the point it did. I looked in the mirror and it was almost like I was looking at somebody else. It's almost like a dissociation, you know, like you stepped, it's almost like you've stepped outside of yourself. Yeah. And it's like, who is this person? You know? So um, so why is the self-abandonment often like a slow process? Like it's not something that happens right away. Wendy, why do you think that is?

SPEAKER_04 30:18

Well, I think it's because we don't actually realize we're doing it, Caitlin. Right. I think that we do it just because we're trying to adapt to the environment we're in. We're trying to please the person that I would do air quotes right now, but you can't see me because my camera's off. We're trying to appease them, we're trying to become what they want because by this point they've already kind of destroyed a little bit of our self-worth and our confidence that we're finding a way to find that confidence and self-worth within them. That we're not able to find it within ourselves. And so I mean, that's that's really why I think it's like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Courtney, what are your thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 31:04

I am I am picking back enough of Wendy's.

unknown 31:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

I I I would agree. I think that's a that's a very good answer. And I do think it, I mean, I think if it happened right away, we might be like, something's wrong, right?

SPEAKER_04 31:19

Whereas No, we can actually we can actually push it back to our last episode when we were talking about love versus control. Because when you get into these toxic relationships, right, we start confusing control for love. And when you start confusing control for love, you start losing yourself so quickly that you don't even realize that that's happening. I agree.

SPEAKER_00 31:40

So I guess then the second question is can someone lose their identity without realizing it, which is kind of an extension. So can you be in a situation?

SPEAKER_02 31:51

I guess I don't know if that means like you think everything's okay, but yeah, I think I totally feel like you don't know that it's so bad until it's bad.

SPEAKER_00 32:00

What was there a time? Can you can either of you give a story? I don't okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_04 32:06

I don't even well, I don't even think that like I just going back to what I just said, right? We slowly lose our identity because there's no way we saw it coming because we become the person that that person wants us to be, and so that becomes our identity. You can't you can't forget, like if you if you become so hyper-focused on this new identity for this person, you're not going to remember the who you were prior to until this person is no longer your identity. And I think how many times I was in a relationship.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

I was just gonna say so many times we expect people to go ahead, Courtney, act like we would. Like you would never act like that. Like, yeah. Oh, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:50

We expect them to have the same things we do with our understanding that every person has from everybody else, and then when these things happen, you're like, Oh, true.

SPEAKER_02 32:58

I would never do that. Like, what is going on? How do I like what what's their fucking sign? How what's their what's their chart? What's their moon? Rowan's catching. Why aren't why aren't we getting a book? Where's Pluto right now? Like, what the fuck? But like we try to justify it, and we're like, oh, they have mental illnesses, do they have depression? Are they bipolar? Is it this? Is it that? And then you try to work with it, and like you try to see for what you saw in the beginning, and you would never act like that, so you would never expect it from somebody, and then you try to again justify it.

SPEAKER_00 33:33

I don't mean to cut you off nobody. I agree with that. All right. Um, I just this I don't know if the story, I I feel like the story kind of applied to this question because I actually had a moment in my toxic situation where I kind of realized like I had lost myself. Um, so in this work education situation, somebody had come into our place of work, and my my mentor was introducing everyone, and she said, she she said my name, and she's like, Oh, this is Caitlin. And she's the peacemaker, she fixes everything, she keeps everybody happy and together. And I was like, I was miserable, and I was like, really? You're trying to do do that though. But I was so miserable, I didn't understand where she even got that from. Like, I was like, I wanted out. I felt like I was in a prison. I'm like, that's how you see me? Like, and then for me, that was like, oh, so that's the cost. That was the cost of me being apparently the person that kept every that kept the piece. And it was just kind of an interesting that's that's the day, that's the day you woke up from the toxic release. And I was like, wait a minute.

SPEAKER_03 34:47

No, you were like, my fucking rose colored glasses just fell off. What the hell?

SPEAKER_00 34:52

So it was kind of in a way, like looking back, that was kind of a gift that um for me to kind of see that that's what she saw in me, even though we had of not we didn't have a good relationship. I thought she just thinks I'm a pushover.

SPEAKER_02 35:10

I kept saying, like, what the fuck is wrong with me? Why do I keep picking the same people? And they're like, people like that seek out people like you that have big hearts, that see the good in people, that try to fix things. Like it's our personality traits. Like, I would also describe you, and so did Wendy just say that we would describe you as the peacekeeper, as you know, the little sunflower that you are. So people like that that are doing this behavior to you are still gonna see you like that because they're taking advantage of that personality trait that you have.

SPEAKER_04 35:39

Because right, right. They're there because they want what they can get from you. They don't want you, they want what they're getting from you, right? So there's this saying that's like flying all over TikTok right now. I'm gonna mention TikTok. It's flying all over TikTok right now, and it's the way that it they they come up with it is they're like people who um are scared to lose you, right? Let me think of how this goes. It says, people who are scared to lose you won't put you in a position. Give me a second, I'll come up with it and I feel like yeah, it's not that beginning sounds.

SPEAKER_00 36:17

No, that's not what it is. It does sound familiar.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Well, I'm gonna have to like delete this out while I fucking need to move through my brain on this because my brain's not braining. Okay. Um quote is the quote is is those the people that are like the people who are scared. Um, god damn it, how does it go? Because it's like the people who who are scared to hurt you are the ones that love you. That's how it goes. The people who are scared to lose you only want you for what you're giving them. The people who are afraid to hurt you are the ones that truly love you.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Okay, that's good. I like that, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:56

Like they're not afraid to lose you because sometimes if we stop and we think about it and we sit back, we are not in control of another human being and their life path might take them to a different direction than us. And if we're scared, we're scared to hurt them than we are to lose them.

SPEAKER_00 37:13

Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_04 37:14

Right? I would never ever want to hurt you, Caitlin. That's scares me. I don't want to hurt either of you. Yeah, it scares me to hurt Courtney, it scares me to hurt my friends, it scares me to hurt the people that I love. I'm not scared to lose them because if I lose them, it's because they're off to better adventures. Also, probably never going to lose them. You know what I mean? But I want my friends to be happy and to live the best life that they're going to ever want to live, including like my relationships. If you're better off without ego, I don't want to hurt you.

SPEAKER_00 37:47

Yep, very good. So we often focus on like leaving the relationship, but we don't focus on kind of what was lost while we were in it. So what's missing from the discussion when we only focus on like leaving the relationship versus what we lost while we were in it? Wendy.

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Well, I mean, I think we've touched on what we've lost while we were in it. We've touched on losing our identity, we've touched on on losing our sense of self-worth, we've touched on losing our confidence, we've touched on a lot of things.

SPEAKER_00 38:22

Isolation.

SPEAKER_04 38:23

Yeah, losing connections, family, friends, self-relation. I think I think like focusing on the grief that we feel when we lose ourselves, because you got to talk about coming out of the relationship. Because when we come out of the relationship, we feel lost.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

Right. So good transition. So when the relationship ends, we're we're we're now changed, right? We've been through it, right? We're changed. What happens at that point? So we're not in the toxic relationship.

SPEAKER_04 38:57

Well, you want to know my I Yes, I I I fall down to the ground. Like I'm not gonna sit back and pretend like I haven't been bedridden for months. I haven't I'm not gonna sit here and pretend like I haven't had to have friends who know my garage code and have keys to my house before come in and freaking get my ass out of bed and make me shower and brush my teeth.

SPEAKER_01 39:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

Trying to figure out who I am now because our identity is lost. We became so a part of that person.

SPEAKER_02 39:25

Claw out just to save yourself.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_04 39:30

So and that leads into oh but you know what what what but what sucks, what sucks is when people sit back and they say things to you like, Come on, it's over. Yes, get up, there's more fish in the sea. You should just you should just be okay, like just keep moving forward when they don't realize that every piece of the identity you created for yourself is gone. It's not just losing the person you were with, you lost who you were.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

Because it's like you lost that person. It's like you, that person, there's someone who um this was a it was a Venn diagram on TikTok of grief. It was excellent. It's like you, the person, and then in the circle where you guys meet, it's you and that person. So when there's that, it's like you don't just lose that person, you lose you with that person. So um, so we get out of the relationship, and one of the least dis least discussed parts of healing, excuse me, is that now we're we're safe, right? But that can actually feel uncomfortable to us, right? Because it's not familiar. So we need to kind of explore these ideas. So once we're out of the toxic relationship, there might be calm, and we're like, what's this? Like, yeah, what's this? You know, we're waiting for the next shoe to drop, right? Because it's been, it's been, it's been, you know, maybe fight after fight after fight or whatever it was. So now you're just waiting for the next shoe to drop. Um, distrusting healthy relationships, like like what is what is a healthy relationship? Um, maybe guilt if you've never set boundaries and now you got to set boundaries. This is a big one I struggled with when I started setting boundaries because people will get mad at you when you start setting boundaries if you've never said them before. So I felt like real, really guilty, like saying no, just because I didn't want to do something. That was my boundary. Um, maybe even just physically, right? Difficulty relaxing. So our nervous system is completely just frazzled, right? Um, and then feeling lost without a crisis to manage, which I I could see that I'm gonna have to say I saw that a lot in my mom as her siblings got older and could kind of fend for themselves. She didn't know what to do with herself when there was no crisis um in their lives. Um, so why can healing feel harder than what we expect? Because I think we have this expectation that it's just we're gonna be frolicking in the woods and you know, with a uh a flower crown and like it's all just gonna be wonderful because we're out of this toxic relationship. But we know that healing is not that way. Why is it harder than it's mourning? Mmm, good. Yes, I agree with that. What are what are you mourning? Yeah, what are you mourning?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

I don't know. Just the lot that I think some of for me, it's been like codependence issues in the past, like because you give so much to it, and then once it's gone, you don't know what to do with yourself. And I think most people, if they've ever been through a hard breakup, like it destroys you. Like you're literally destroyed. And if you are smart enough to heal, you'll heal slow and it's brutal and it's awful. And maybe you'll seek help and get therapy and work through it so that you can start noticing these things and moving forward. But I mean, nobody's gonna sit there and be like, oh, I broke up and then go frolicking around like with your little flower crown. Like it's awful, it's staying in bed, and it's like Wendy just said, it's having people come over to make sure you can get up, you know. Like it's grief, it is mourning, it's not just like, oh, this tie is gone, and now I feel so much better. It never feels better, it feels so much worse before it feels better for me personally.

SPEAKER_00 43:10

Right, yeah, I agree with that.

SPEAKER_04 43:12

No, no, I agree with you a hundred percent. It it always, always it's greet. Like it's maybe not always for everybody, and fuck all you motherfuckers that can just walk away from a relationship and be like, oh, I'm fine. Like, fuck you guys. Like, I don't know, I might question you if you just trying to hit me up a week after you broke out of a four-year relationship because I know I couldn't do that, but um, I I think I just pissed off half the internet by saying that.

SPEAKER_03 43:39

But anyways, moving forward, probably we're okay with that.

SPEAKER_04 43:41

Cool, cool, cool. Listen, I got I'm a crab, I got dick shells. I have a cancer, so like anyways, moving forward, like you lose so much of who your what your identity became. You lose so much of you, and you lose the idea. That you were clinging to. This entire life that you had planned with this person, this entire future. Yes. This entire idea. You lost the person that you came to every day and talked to. You lost the person that was your constant sitting around you every fucking day, right? You lose all of this. And now you're stuck by yourself. You've lost who you initially were in the beginning, right? Because obviously when you're in a relationship like that, you don't get to be you. So you lose you and your identity becomes them. And now you have to become something new. You have to become something different. You grieve not only the loss of what you thought you were going to have, but you also lose the loss of the person that you became.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah, I agree with that totally. And the loss of what was supposed to be, I agree. So why do some people struggle so when the chaos finally ends?

SPEAKER_04 45:00

People struggle because it doesn't feel safe when there's not chaos, because you're used to being stuck in survival mode. When you're used to constantly having to walk on eggshells, when you're used to constantly having to monitor the things that you say, to tone down your reactions or your actions to anything, right? When you get into groups of new people and you start hanging around people, you you don't feel safe. You weren't safe.

SPEAKER_00 45:31

Right.

SPEAKER_04 45:32

You weren't safe. And so like you have to slowly work into trust again because you trusted somebody enough, even though they were treating you this poorly to make them your identity, to make them your world. And it's let's talk about how poorly we talked to ourselves. Because I've talked to myself after I got out of my last relationship. I was destroyed. I thought I was the dumbest person alive. How did I not do this? What is wrong with me that I allowed this to happen? I blamed myself. I did not put the blame on the person that hurt me. And my nervous system now is so scared that I'm going to choose wrong. I'm going to pick that same person again. I'm going to put myself into that situation again. And I have worked so damn hard to redefine my identity, to become somebody I'm comfortable with, to become somebody I can look in the mirror and love again. I have worked so hard for that. So how do I trust it? And then when people come around and they're super sweet to you, you're like, what do you, what do you, what do you, what's the what's the right, right? What what game what do you play? You're yeah, yeah, you're looking, you're looking for the catch because you haven't felt safe. Like every time there was always a catch. So there has to be a catch now. You have to retrain your nervous system. I saw something one time that said that the best way to like your nervous system warns you of things, and I can't quote this. I am saying this off my brain. I could be wrong if I'm wrong. Everybody come at me at the comments. I was wrong last week. I do need to say that real quick. I should have said it in the beginning, but I'm gonna say it now. It's not Tasha, it's Tanya. My bad. Okay, no, you're still wrong.

SPEAKER_02 47:28

It's Taylor.

SPEAKER_04 47:30

Taylor, okay. I was still wrong. It's Taylor. Taylor, Taylor was in the show. I can't even remember the show. Maternal instinct. Matern. Maternal instinct. It was Taylor, not Tasha, and also not Tanya. So my bad. But anyways, like we just we don't so that's what I was saying. I was getting right quote. Like they say your nervous system warns you, right? Like I've heard things like when you get butterflies in your stomach, not good. That's your nervous system warning you. When somebody comes and they stay the night at your house for the first night, and they lay next to you and you find it hard to sleep, you toss and you turn, and you cannot relax. That's your nervous system warning you. Your nervous system is always already picking up on the minute intricacies of that person prior to you ever actually seeing it. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 48:34

Interesting. Courtney, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 48:37

Oh, my thoughts are um unrelated to this conversation because I'm like, how the hell did I tell them I was getting in the shower at three?

SPEAKER_01 48:44

And it is 423.

SPEAKER_00 48:46

Okay. All right. All right. Well, next next question.

SPEAKER_02 48:51

Um I don't know how I got stuck into this. I'm like, I'm just gonna be a voyeur and listen, and here I am.

SPEAKER_00 48:58

I'm loving it. I I I'm loving this.

SPEAKER_03 49:00

So can I actually think that this should be this should be like the format of the podcast. I think Courtney should be in every last one.

SPEAKER_00 49:09

Ideally get theoretically getting in the shower, right? Um by Courtney.

SPEAKER_03 49:15

Everybody on the I'm leaving that in. Everyone's being getting in. That's great.

SPEAKER_00 49:23

So all right. I'm leaving that in. Oh my gosh. Can survival become part of someone's identity? And I must, I need to answer this question first. My mother battled cancer for 14 years, and I took care of her for 12 of the 14 years of her illness. And Wendy and I were actually talking last night, and she was telling me she's like, you know, taking care of a loved one who's terminally ill, that's a toxic relationship. It's not toxic in the sense that I was being abused or misused. She needed care. I mean, it got to the point at the end where she couldn't even pull the covers up for herself. So of course I had to provide her care. Um but that became such a part of my identity. Like, and of course, you're totally stressed out, and everyone's going, you know, it's so wonderful that you're taking care of your mother. I would do it again, no regrets whatsoever, but it is a very stressful experience being a, and I think Corn, you might correct me on this. I think this is caretaking. Yes, right. I was gonna say this is caretaking versus thinking of this. And it's hard, and and it did become part of my identity, um, not only as a being a caretaker, but you're in survival mode just because you're not taking care of yourself, really. I put all of my needs on the back burner, and then what I remember the first night she died, I was like, it's so quiet. Like, I don't have to give her meds, I don't have to. It was weird, on top of obviously grieving the loss of my mom. So, yes, survival can very much become part of somebody's identity. Go ahead, Wendy. She's like, Well, sorry, I you always I'm sorry, I just see you first in the because it's like me, you, and I'm not an explanation.

SPEAKER_03 51:15

Like, I'm my brain fucking asshole. No, no, no, no. Sorry, it's it's my brain.

SPEAKER_00 51:19

I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_04 51:20

You're fine. So we're talking about survival becoming a part of your identity, right? Of course it is. Like I said it earlier, where I I no longer trust people. I look at people like, what are you going to do? I hyper fixate on things, right? I sit back and I read a room. I watch everybody, like I am, I am a queen at reading nonverbal communication because I've always had to have it to survive. So I pay attention, I sit back and I watch, I watch people's reactions, I notice shift in energy, shifts in um emotions and people. Like, of course, it's it's a hundred percent part of my identity. Survival has to be because survival was such a huge part of my life. Because not only did I have to survive during childhood, but I continued to cycle through the same pattern over and over again with people. And until I, you know, started. Well, I won't say until I started, I'm going to say I started uh noticing that I was doing that, and I started seeking help for that in order to stop chasing the same pattern, putting myself in the same situations that felt comfortable, like Courtney said earlier, I quit finding the known players.

SPEAKER_00 52:40

Yeah. Oof, okay.

SPEAKER_04 52:43

But I still am hyper-vil vigilant when I'm around people. When I walk into a room, I don't care if I'm going to a bar, I don't if I'm going to a party or if I'm going to a family function. I pay attention to everybody's body language. I pay attention to those non-verbal cues. I immediately do not trust anybody that walks into my life. In my world, trust is earned, not given. And I know there's a lot of people out there that are like, why don't you should trust somebody until they give you a reason not to trust them? And to those people, I say, fuck you, because now I'm going to piss off the other half of the internet. Because no, I don't. Trust is earned in my world, it is not given. Courtney, any thoughts?

SPEAKER_02 53:27

Oh, I think it's completely made me who I am. I was trying to find my little notes here about caretaking versus caregiving because when you were talking, I'm like, I have so much to say about that.

SPEAKER_03 53:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:39

Yeah, I think I saw that you had posted them somewhere on a social media site. Yes. But that was good. I might I might have them. I might have stolen them.

SPEAKER_02 53:50

You you are more of the non-trusting person. I'm still that asshole that's fucking skipping down the street thinking everybody is thinking like I do, and I usually trust them forward. I do observe a lot and I do pay attention way more than I say. But I am that non non-filtered person that will call you out on your shit if I think that that's what you are. But sometimes I do just still blindly trust. But I think that's back to hurtful hope for me.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_04 54:17

I call people, I call people out before they even give me a reason to call them out because I read their energy so well.

SPEAKER_00 54:24

Yeah, you do.

SPEAKER_04 54:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't like that superpower. I do not like that superpower. I wish I didn't have it. I wish that I could be oblivious to it, but unfortunately, that is not how the universe decided that I was supposed to be. And so I know, Kaylin and Courtney, that both of you have seen me with people be like, uh I don't know. And yeah, sometimes I'm wrong. Sometimes I'm not. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_00 54:54

So if we're no longer surviving, who are we without the survival strategies that we've adopted?

SPEAKER_02 55:03

Badass motherfuckers.

SPEAKER_03 55:05

Yeah. That's a good answer. I was gonna say, I don't know yet. That's what the fuck we are.

SPEAKER_02 55:11

We are survivors that are trying to thrive in self-awareness and emotional maturity and learning from ourselves and learning from our experiences and trying to be better for ourselves so that we can be better for another person.

SPEAKER_04 55:28

Oh, and that that's the key right there. That's the key, is because unfortunately, most of the time the cycle of abuse continues within the abuse. Yeah. And in the the self-awareness to say, to have that, to actually sit back and choose that self-awareness to say, you know what, I'm not going to be this reactive person that the abuse I suffered created.

SPEAKER_02 55:53

You find your little light. And you try to turn it back on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 55:58

And it's gonna shine. Light of this little light. I'm gonna let it shine. I'm gonna let it shine.

SPEAKER_00 56:07

So as we as we kind of move out of the survival mode and start healing, um, you know, we we we talk about healing as kind of this wonderful experience, but it's not always about relief, right? So a lot of times it's about loss, and we've touched on that, right? So we talked about grieving, right? The person you used to be, the former version of yourself. Um, you can get angry. Anger was something I experienced a lot of anger over what's being taken or what you feel maybe is being taken from you. Um, wishing you could go back. So, like having a do-over, right? And maybe, and also feeling disconnected from who you were before that relationship. Why don't we talk about the grief of like losing ourselves and our identity?

SPEAKER_02 56:55

Um, I think the people that are genuinely going to try to be self-aware will seek help, whether that be through friends that align with your values, or whether that be professional therapeutic help to try to learn these things to do better and be better. Um I don't even know where the fuck.

SPEAKER_00 57:22

But do you see it? Do you see the like do you have an idea though that you're grieving? Like, I guess for me, it's like I think it took me a long time to get to a point where I was like, oh, I was just grieving this loss. No, like mine didn't dawn on me.

SPEAKER_02 57:37

No, mine's never dawned on me. My grief is like heavy. Um, that's just something I can't really hide. But um, yeah. I think it's something that I personally have no problem grieving my losses loudly. I mean, I might isolate, but it's still heavy.

SPEAKER_04 57:59

So I think But so so the question though is is why don't we talk about the grief that we have actually losing ourselves? Because most of the time when we talk to other people about the loss of a relationship, it doesn't circle around the grief that we feel inside of ourselves. Yeah, I think that's a community thing. Like that seems to be a good thing.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

That's follow that's like finding your tribe and people or a community that you feel like you can be accepted in. So there's like emotional intimacy versus emotional loneliness. Like emotional intimacy is being able to talk to anybody about anything. Like Kelly is one of my best friends. I could call her up and tell her absolutely anything that I'm feeling and feeling like that's something that you have to be able to be emotionally raw with a community of people to even be able to discuss it. But then you need to have also people that are surrounding you that have the emotional capacity to process it with you. And then again, it's back to the questions of when you are grieving something. Do you want support? Do you want advice or do you want a distraction? Like, do you want, do you want to just let somebody vent? Like you have to ask people, you know, that are grieving, like, what do you need from me? Do you mean do you need me to sit with you? Do you need do you need me to run an errand with you? Do you want to talk about it? Do you want my advice? Do you want my personal experiences?

SPEAKER_00 59:19

Like right. And I wonder too, like, so when someone dies, right? We have rituals. We might have a funeral or memorial. Like, you break up with your partner. There's not like we don't, like, at least culturally on a large scale, we don't really have like well, I guess there's like divorce parties. That's kind of usually, but um, you know what I mean, but but we don't have like a formalized ritual, right? Actually, that it's like to Well, wait, well, wait, wait, wait.

SPEAKER_04 59:48

What's weird about a divorce party? I fucking love it. I just I love it too. That's why I'm like what's weird about it, Katie. I mean what's weird about celebrating?

SPEAKER_02 59:59

I don't fucking like it. I kind of feel like I do celebrate like when when I have people who leave bad relationships, I'm fucking celebrating like a motherfucker with them. I'm ready to fucking I'll parade down the fucking street. There ain't no memorial, I'll fucking have it. Cheers. Let's go and fucking shake our hand.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:15

But okay, so but here's the thing that's that's what if but like do we have like what about a ritual to actually like go honor the grief like in the pain, not just like a celebration that this person who wasn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

I feel like the ritual should be we should light them on fire for hurting us.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:33

Okay, well that I don't think okay, okay. That is not that's not acceptable. We do not encourage form, promote that activity.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

I'm going to light you on fire.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:49

No, no, no. Outside the form, no, this kind of behavior.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:55

Outside the shower supports it, though. And I guess I want to say, like, I've never I've never I've never been married or gone through a divorce. So I guess maybe because that's something outside the realm of my experience, I find weird. So I apologize. I did not mean that in like a derogatory way. It's just you're not being offensive. It's because I guess it's maybe like a newer thing. No, it's not derogatory. Maybe it's like a newer thing in our society, and it's so maybe it's just something I'm not used to seeing. But I'm thinking like it's and I I get like the but I think it goes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:27

You gotta think about how long the average divorce takes nowadays. Oh, I guess when you stop and think about the average divorce, the grieving is already over by the time the divorce is finally finalized, and by the time it's finally finalized, these people have become so okay with it being over that they're ready to celebrate the loss.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:48

Many a time I've said to someone, Oh, I'm sorry to hear about your divorce, and they're like, I'm not. So they've moved on before I've moved on.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:56

Yeah. So but like societally speaking, though, I don't think we talk enough about losing yourself in a relationship. I really don't. I think we focus more even on friend groups and stuff like that. Like I appreciate what Courtney said um when she said that you have to be emotionally raw with people. But the problem is that most of the time that we're emotionally raw with people is because we have some sort of standard that has been set for us that has made us feel comfortable with that emotional rawness, right? Where we're we're like, this isn't weird, this isn't out of the realm. And I think that just speaking from my opinion, that not enough people do understand that the loss of the relationship is not the biggest loss that somebody feels because I do feel like the loss of yourself in those situations is and I do like it, it irritates me when people say, Oh, well, you're not in that situation anymore. You don't have to deal with that anymore. You should be happy, you should move on, like feel great now that you don't have to deal with that anymore. And they don't actually understand the fact that you're not just dealing, like that might not actually be the reason that you're sad. It's maybe because now you don't know where to go from here because that was the identity you created for yourself, right? Right. So and that is something that we don't talk about.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:26

I agree, I would agree with that, absolutely. So if we can't obviously, if we can't return to who we were, how do we how do we move forward with all of this? Move forward how so you know we've gotten out of the toxic relationship, we're we're maybe we're in therapy, we're open, we're reaching out to people, we're starting to realize Well, that is moving, that is moving forward.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:53

If you're if you're in therapy and you're opening up to people, that's moving forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:58

True. We start to maybe accept, right? We have to kind of get to a point where we accept what has happened and how we've changed. So we have to start making peace with the change that has occurred. Um, that means we have to develop some emotional.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:16

And so, like what you just like what you just said, going to therapy, what what Courtney was saying was self-awareness.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:22

Right. Right. So with with all of this kind of um working towards I guess maybe a newer version of ourselves, learning to love ourselves as we are, how do we stop comparing ourselves to who we used to be?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:40

Uh, I think that takes time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:44

And I think for me, like I don't think there's an answer to that question. I think that time I mean, I would like what what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:52

Well, I think what it is is I think understanding that that person that we used to be got us through the experience. And now what I often will do now is I will thank that past person for getting me through the experience and say, you can rest now. Like you don't have to be hyper-vigilant, you don't have to, you know, walk on eggshells or whatever, whatever it is. You don't have to suppress your emotions. There, that's my thing. Um, so that's kind of what I do. I thank that previous person.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:20

You just went all Buddhist on me, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:22

I did.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:24

I think moving forward has to do with therapy, understanding yourself a little bit better, becoming more self-aware. Um, I definitely think that that's that that's that's how you do it. You have to become self-aware. I'm not disagreeing with you. You do have to learn the lesson that the person that you were with provided you. And hopefully, with the self-awareness, you can move forward from that.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

This gets us back to the central question. Who are you when you're no longer surviving? We've explored that survival is not an identity. Coping mechanisms are not character, characteristic traits. Healing isn't the destination. Uh, you need self-recognition to grow. Um, grief and growth can coexist together. And the goal isn't to become who you are, it's to learn to love who you are now. Maybe what's missing from the discussion is that healing isn't only about leaving the difficult relationship, it's about what comes after. It's about rediscovering the parts of yourself that was buried beneath fear, adaptation, and survival.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:38

But it's also about grief, grieving the trust that was broken, grieving the time that was lost, and sometimes grieving the person you used to be.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:47

Because healing doesn't always return us to who we were before. Sometimes it changes us. And sometimes it asks us to let go of the version of ourself that we're still trying to get back. And sometimes the most courageous part of healing isn't looking backwards, it's learning to love the person standing in front of you today. Because eventually the question is no longer, how did I survive? It is who am I becoming? And as always, what's missing from the discussion? I'm your host, Kaylyn. And I'm Wendy, and Courtney is the shower.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:23

Peace out.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:25

That's the best fucking ending everyone.