Episode 2 Love Vs. Control

When does care become control? In Episode 2, Wendy and Klynn explore why controlling behaviors are so often mistaken for love. Through conversations about relationships, friendships, family, religion, and personal growth, they examine how fear, insecurity, and attachment can blur the line between genuine care and unhealthy control—and what healthy love actually looks like when autonomy, trust, and respect are allowed to thrive.

Resources & Support

If you are experiencing abuse, coercive control, emotional manipulation, or feel unsafe in a relationship, help is available. You do not have to navigate it alone.

National Domestic Violence Hotline

•  Call: 1-800-799-SAFE (7233) 
•  Text: START to 88788 
•  Available 24/7 for confidential support, safety planning, crisis intervention, and local resources. 

love is respect

•  Call: 1-866-331-9474 
•  Text: LOVEIS to 22522 
•  24/7 support focused on dating relationships, relationship abuse, healthy boundaries, and young adults. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Okay, we're recording now. So I don't even know how to start off with the banter. Like I know. I don't know. You know what I watch? We're gonna have to figure that out. No, no, no, no. Good morning. Let's talk about banter. Morning. What's banter? Good morning. We don't do small talk. We're not small talk banter. Not really.

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I know we're not small talk banter. That's why it's so much. Which is probably why this isn't even going to be small talk banter, because I know you watched maternal instincts on Netflix like I did. Oh. And I know that you're equally as so let's talk about because we haven't had a chance to talk about it yet. You want to talk about it? My you know, okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

So without naming names, I feel like the I forget what was her name. Didn't even remember her name.

SPEAKER_01 1:00

You can name, you can name names. You don't have to need to name names.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

They already named the names. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. You you you'll understand when I oh, you're gonna make personal.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

I just want to talk about Shuffle.

SPEAKER_02 1:18

So the person who committed the murder, I can't think of her name because she was how Tasha, I believe, is her name.

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Tasha Young.

SPEAKER_02 1:28

Just like the way she deceived people and how she connected through deception reminded me of somebody that unfortunately got into my circle. Oh, yeah. And it really like, yeah, it just and this is a situation I know. I'm I'm still kind of processing this personal situation. There's kind of a lot of like anger, and how did I not see this? And kind of feeling and feeling duped, and essentially we weren't being, I was I was duped, but yeah, it just kind of brought back a lot of that, and it was just it was gross, like to see it, you know, to to see it that behavior again, the way she was with people.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

I wanna why I want to know why nobody said anything. They got all of these people that are like, oh yeah, we knew we knew she had a hysterectomy and she was lying. Well nobody reached out.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

It's like HIPAA saved her. HIPAA saved her.

SPEAKER_01 2:24

No, no, just for the doctors, not with the friend, not with the friend group.

SPEAKER_02 2:28

But that was a big thing. No, I understand that, but with the doctors, it did it wouldn't be.

SPEAKER_01 2:41

They could have reached out and said, Hey, wait, you're being dupe, she had a hysterectomy. They wouldn't have been violating anything, and nobody said nothing. They all just sat back and go, Whoa, what crazy bitch. We all know she's not pregnant.

SPEAKER_02 2:52

Yeah, and I think part of it too is that they they didn't want any part of her anymore, so they kind of kept their distance. But also, what's the saying?

SPEAKER_01 3:01

That's icky easier to agree.

SPEAKER_02 3:11

But think about this you're a stranger to these people, okay? So you start to see this person, you message this person maybe what through Facebook, and you're like, hey, I was so-and-so's friend. She's a chronic liar, and blah blah like how would it be coming to him? Maybe, but sometimes you know what's the saying? It's easier to fool people than to convince them that they're being fooled.

SPEAKER_00 3:37

I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

That sometimes backfires.

SPEAKER_01 3:41

It does, but the whole idea that she was pregnant, he never once saw her belly, never once went to a doctor's appointment with her. Like, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 3:50

That was crazy. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 3:53

This almost segues into our damn episode because she was she was a controlling mofo from the skit, and that's exactly what we're talking about, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:04

Yeah, it was just and like just like the work she put into the line, like having multiple phones so she could like be texting about herself. Like, it was just I don't know. It it just like it was mind-boggling.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

What was the Netflix series with the mom that was trolling her own daughter and her daughter's boyfriend? What was that? What was that one? Oh, you gotta watch it. You're gonna have to watch it and then we'll watch it because the mom was doing it for years. She went to prison for it. Like it was but it was it was ah man, I wish I could remember the name of it. I can Google the plot. I'm gonna have to, I'm gonna have to. Will you will you Google it right now, Netflix mom controlling son and or daughter and boyfriend for the name because my my poor brain the daughter and her boyfriend, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:59

On Netflix. Oh, unknown number, the high school cat. Unknown number. I I had unknown in my head the whole time, and I'm like, is it unknown number?

SPEAKER_02 5:06

She cyberbullied her daughter. Oh my gosh, that's crazy.

SPEAKER_01 5:09

Oh, yeah, hardcore. You gotta watch that one next.

SPEAKER_02 5:12

That'll be my show for tonight.

SPEAKER_01 5:17

But as far as everything else goes, as far as world ruining, we all know I ruined everybody in the friend group's world this week with the series that it did not make because we all live in free will here. But that highly recommend if anybody hasn't seen it, to go watch from scratch. But just a fair, fair warning, fair advisory, it will completely and totally emotionally destroy you in the best way. Yeah.

unknown 5:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 5:50

Yeah. As hard as it was to watch, I think they do a really good job, especially dealing with well, I don't know. I guess maybe I shouldn't say I'm not allowed to spoil it.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

No, don't spoil it. Don't spoil it. All I know is this week we watched two things that were very contradicting, just like our convert conversation's gonna be today. Yeah, we watched a show that emotionally wrecks you because there was so much love that's from scratch. And we watched a show that emotionally destroys you because there was so much control. Control in this week's episode, we're doing love versus control. Yeah, yeah. Should we just segue into it? So it's funny how it worked out that way, isn't it? We just jump in, jump into the waters. Episode two, here we go. I don't know that we're gonna be any better than episode one, but let's give it a goddamn try. All right, guys. Welcome to Outside the Footnotes, the podcast where we explore the perspectives, experiences, and questions that often get overlooked in large conversations. I'm your host, Wendy. And I'm Kaylin. Today's topic is love and control. At first glance, they seem like opposites. Love is often associated with freedom, trust, and connection. Control, on the other hand, is associated with restriction, power, and manipulation. But if the line between them is so clear, Kaylin, why do people confuse them so often? Why is control so often mistaken for love? When someone says, I just want what's best for you, is that care or control? When jealousy is framed as devotion, is that love? When protection becomes restriction, where is the line? These questions matter because control doesn't always arrive looking controlling. Sometimes it arrives disguised as concern. Sometimes it sounds like sacrifice, sometimes it feels like security, and sometimes the people exercising control genuinely believe they're acting out of love. Here on Outside the Footnotes, we're always asking, what's missing from the discussion? When we talk about controlling relationships, we often focus on obvious warning signs and extreme examples. Those conversations are important, but what's often missing is a deeper examination of why control can feel so much like love in the first place. Today we'll explore where the confusion comes from, how it shows up in our relationships, and what it might teach us about trust, attachment, vulnerability, and the way we understand love itself. Before we can talk about confusing control with love, Caitlin, we need to understand what control actually is. Why don't you give us the definition for that?

SPEAKER_02 8:37

The definition of control is the attempt to manage, direct, or limit another person's thoughts, feelings, behaviors, relationships, or choices in order to reduce uncertainty, discomfort, fear, or risk.

SPEAKER_01 8:52

That's a pretty, pretty good definition, Kaylin. Okay. So when when I if I say the word control, Caitlin, what's the first thing that comes to your mind? If I said I if I if I told you, I said, Kaylin, I feel like that person's trying to gain control. What would you what would you immediately think?

SPEAKER_02 9:11

When I think of the word control, I think of abuse or possession. So just these extreme behaviors that harm people, selfishness, entitlement, those are all things I think about when I think of control.

SPEAKER_01 9:24

So I can control exist without malicious intent, do you think?

SPEAKER_02 9:29

I think it can, yes. I think the most common scenario we can see that in is a healthy parent-child, minor child relationship, where a parent has to make decisions for a child that is unable to make decisions for themselves. So I do think that can exist.

SPEAKER_01 9:46

Well, that wouldn't that wouldn't be control, would it? That would be nurturing, protecting.

SPEAKER_02 9:51

Well, yeah, but there's a level of control. You have to make you'd have to make, you know, I mean, think about it. You the parent decides where the child goes to school, the parents going to make medical decisions. They're not going to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

So the child can't make decisions for themselves. Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 10:07

But that's a form, it's still a form, it's still a form of control on something.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

Listen, I'm gonna agree to it. I feel I feel like a parent could control their child without malicious intent, but I don't think it looks like, oh, I'm gonna this is the school I you have to enroll your kid in school. Like it's required. Your kid, your kid can't go and roll themselves in school. Your kid can't pick their own school. Now, now when we talk about we talk about control that's not malicious when you want the best in a childhood setting between a a child and a parent, maybe like controlling who their friends are. You can't hang out with that person. You don't get to make a choice to wear those clothes. Like that to me is not malicious, but still control.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

Agreed. I agree with that. Picking out where they're going to school and doing just the normal things that are nurturing, I don't feel like Yeah, but what if the kid is a little bit, maybe they're let's say they're 10 and they're aware and they're like, Well, I want to go to this school. And you're like, no, you're going to this school. That's kind of that would be control. Can the parent afford the school the kid wants to go to?

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Are they in the the jurisdiction for that kid to even go to that school? The kid doesn't just get to sit back and say, My best friend Bobby goes to school three counties away. That's the school I want to go to. I know.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

It's still a form of control. I don't think it's bad. I just I think it's still a form of control.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Okay. I uh how okay. I'll you could choose to homeschool your child. I see where you're going.

SPEAKER_02 11:37

I see where you're going with this. So I if you're making decisions for somebody, or you that's control, that's there's still a form of control. Even if your decisions are limited, you are still making the decisions.

SPEAKER_01 11:51

Okay, I see where you're going. So, like if I gave you power of attorney over me.

SPEAKER_02 11:56

Right. Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 11:59

You would have control. Okay. All right. I see where that went. I see. I I wasn't processing it at in the beginning when you were saying it, because in my mind I was looking, I guess I wasn't looking at the question right. I wasn't looking at it as how can control not be malicious, because in my mind I was still seeing control as a very malicious thing. So I appreciate that point of view, Caitlin.

SPEAKER_02 12:21

Oh, yeah, and I think I think that's the norm. I think it's normal to see control as malicious because again, it's one of those things where, like, when it is malicious, it's very obvious to us. And we're like, ah, that person is controlling.

SPEAKER_01 12:34

Yeah, I know, but when you say love versus control, right? So that's what we're talking about. We're talking about love bubbles is over here on her back playing with her ball. Did you hear her just bark? She's like, I will not be having this podcast today. All right. I don't know if I'm gonna leave that in or not, but we'll find out. Okay, so let me continue to try to control this conversation. Okay. So my bad. All right. So let's talk about like because let's move back into the love versus control thing. Love versus control, right? So most of the time when we associate that love versus control, we're talking about more of adult interactions as opposed to childhood. I do know that it exists over in childhood, but I really don't want to fucking I don't I don't pardon my language. I don't want to center in on the the the the child parent dynamic. I wanna I wanna center in more on the relationships that we have, not only with friends, but also in our relationships that are intimate. And so I think that that does exist a lot, and I think there's a lot of people that are always trying to gain control. And I guess why do you think that I I say I guess too much, so you guys are gonna have to excuse me for that. I'll try to be more pointed. Why do you, Caitlin, think that someone would seek to control another person in the first place? Let's let's go, let's break down that dichotomy. Let's break down the things that happen inside of another human's internal workings and existence that makes them feel like the only option is that control.

SPEAKER_02 14:07

I think some people seek control because they try to mold people in an image that they want. I think some people seek control because they fear losing somebody. So it's a way they're attempting to keep them in their life. Um, I think some people are just power hungry and they enjoy manipulating people. I mean, that's a really dark thing to say, but there are definitely people who just are not good people in the world and enjoy that dynamic. Yeah. So I think those are some of the main reasons. Look at that. Um again, I think some of the happy maternal instinct we watched.

SPEAKER_01 14:46

She was controlling because and that was a very dark form of control that got out of hand.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

It was. I think she enjoyed it on some level too. And I do think some people who control, so if you talk about the controlling person, really think they're doing it out of love. So it's not just that those of us on the outside maybe confuse it, but I think sometimes the people in that relationship confuse love and control as well.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

I know, Caitlin, that not only have I experienced control in my life, but I was also responsible for controlling other people. Back when I was younger, obviously hadn't seek therapy and was trying to to make myself feel better because of the emotional trauma and the bullshit that I've been through, right? And so, like, and I I could see, I see it from both sides. Like I understood why I controlled. But now as I'm older, I turned 48, I can, you know, honestly sit back and see the behaviors that I exhibited and analyze them and understand why, right? Like growing up in a family dynamic where I really had absolutely no stability or acceptance. It's that need for stability and acceptance that you want to hang on to. It's that that fear of losing something that you find stable. It's not trusting people because you you never had that basis of trust to begin with, right? Just to name a few things. And now that I've gotten older, I see how gross it was to do those things because it feels so much better for somebody to continually choose you without you requiring them to or making them. Like, have you ever in your I mean, I'm I'm sure everybody I could sit back and say that they've been controlled, but I'd be interested in hearing about situations that you've had where somebody has controlled you, or even situations, Caitlin, where you might have been the controlling person in that.

SPEAKER_02 16:42

Well, one of the first controlling experiences I can think of is as a young child and my mother, God rest her soul, she went through a lot of trauma and was very codependent. She I would be upset or I'd be sad, I'd be angry, whatever it was. And if it was a negative, negative emotion, I I I try not to put a whole lot of labels on emotions. As long as we process them healthy, I think they're all okay. But she would say, Don't feel that way. And it would so on top of feeling whatever I was feeling about a situation, now I was angry that she was telling me not to feel that way. And even though I know in her heart of hearts, she wanted what was best for me, right? Because I think I think most parents do, it was definitely kind of a form of emotional control to try to tell me not to feel my negative emotions.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Have you ever dealt with any kind of situations like that in relationships that did not involve your parents? You keep going back to that family dynamic. I know friendships, relationships.

SPEAKER_02 17:47

You know, I'm not a controlling person. That isn't my I just don't really have that personality. But I definitely have seen situations where maybe I thought I was helping someone and maybe realized I was kind of trying to control the situation.

SPEAKER_01 18:02

Have you ever been controlled by another person in your adult life? And I'm I'm asking you this because I'm also going to like we're gonna move into a little bit deeper level of what control looks like that most people might not think is control.

SPEAKER_02 18:17

No, I don't I don't tolerate that from people who I consider my equals.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

Would you tolerate it from somebody you felt like was above you?

SPEAKER_02 18:27

Possibly. Like a teacher or somebody in authority. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 18:32

So we know that control can be photo motivated by fear, concern, uncertainty, right? Yeah. All of those things. Like I labeled that out. That's why I used to be a controlling person. Took years of me working on it, actually identifying the things that I was doing, actively working on changing those patterns and behaviors that I and and dealing with my inner self and emotionally healing from certain things, right? But it's still mistaken for love. Because here's the thing is that control starts out small. It's never some big thing that's right in your face. It starts out small. It starts out with those cute text messages from the person you're interested in with, where they're constantly texting you, wanting to know how you're doing. How's your day going? And then it turns into the why aren't you answering me? What are you doing? Who are you with? I don't like that you talk to those people. I don't think those people are good for you. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah. And then it just snowballs. And so the smallest things that sometimes we could find that are extraordinarily like we, oh, they came to my apartment complex and they left a rose on my car. How sweet. I'm not in my world, and and you know what? I might get a lot of hell for this. Feel free to tell me if you disagree, everybody. Email me, comment in the podcast, let me know. But I'm gonna tell you what, doing stuff like that, I don't find so sweet. I don't, and I'm gonna tell you why I don't find it sweet. Because you know you're coming to see me in a couple of days. Bring me the rose that don't stalk me at my apartment complex and put it on my damn windshield while I'm there. Yeah. Because to me, that seems a little Yeah. It it is it is creepy, but people think it's it's love, right? They you get these people and they love bomb the hell out of you in the beginning, and people are like, oh, look at how much they care about me. You know, like let's say I get up super early in the morning, right? You know this, Caitlin. Like I was just up at 2:30 yesterday morning in order to get to work on time. Ridiculous amounts of time. So I will randomly fall asleep. All my friends like to call it sundowning narcolepsy. It is not. I just sleep really hard and really fast because I have a hard job and I have very crazy hours and I get tired. That's what happens when you're 47, almost 48 years old. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

True.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

And so I could go to bed, right? And then you get done with your stuff at nine. Now I'm I'm narcolepsying it up in the bedroom, okay? There's nothing that's gonna wake my wake me up, and you know my ass ain't waking up, Caitlin. You've been around me when I'm like that. So when I go to sleep, like I will sleep through a freaking earthquake sinkhole, wake up down in the depths of the fucking earth, going, How the fuck did I get here? Like, and then I I will have great rest because I slept right through it. So you send me a good night text, I'm already asleep. You want a good morning text from me? I've been up since 2.30. You're never gonna beat me to a good morning text if I'm gonna, if I'm gonna good morning, but then let's say I don't wake up at 2 30. I wake up at 3 and I'm like, holy crap, now my whole morning routine is ruined and I'm rushing everywhere to get ready for work. And then you're gonna get mad at me because I forgot to say good morning. You're gonna get mad at me because I was already asleep. And didn't say good night.

SPEAKER_02 22:02

That is how it starts. I agree.

SPEAKER_01 22:04

And it kind of it almost it almost looks like it and in the beginning it's framed in a way like, oh, I was worried about you. I was worried about you. You didn't contact me. I was scared something happened to you. Please don't do that. It made me feel like something happened to you.

SPEAKER_02 22:19

Yeah. That's true. Those things happen.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

It it starts like that. And then the next thing you know, it's oh no, no, no, I'll drive you to work. Oh, look at how sweetie is driving me to work. Or no, no, no, no, I'll go put gas in your car. You see how that works? Oh no, no, no, no, let me buy that for you. Let me do this. And then the next thing you know, you're so surrounded by everything that they're doing. Yeah. And this is the one thing that I hate more than anything is look at everything I do for you. I love you. And you don't respect or care about me for loving you because they said, Hey, I don't like you talking to that person. And you're like, that person's my friend. I'm not going to stop talking to them.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Right.

SPEAKER_01 22:59

Well, I don't trust them. I think they like you.

SPEAKER_02 23:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:02

Look at everything I do for you. Don't you see how much I love you? Why don't you love me back? I should be enough. Why do you need them? It's a very slippery slope because in the beginning we confuse it. In the beginning, we confuse all of those actions as love, and we don't see what they're building up to until they become that.

SPEAKER_02 23:19

Right. And often, like I said, that person may also, the person who's doing the controlling may also see it as love, which makes it even messier. Because you have to say, no, that's you know, you like they don't they don't get that that's inappropriate behavior.

SPEAKER_01 23:41

No, and so I don't know, like the the person could come up to you and say, Well, I just love you and I want what's best for you. Right? Okay, your intent, you love me, you want what's best for me, but is that actually okay?

SPEAKER_02 23:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

It does it matter how much the negative actions this person is throwing. Am I losing myself? How does this action impact me? Yes, you might think you're doing what's best for me because you love me, but how now is this affecting me as an autonomous person?

SPEAKER_02 24:17

Right, right. Yeah, definitely. And then they make you feel bad for questioning their motives. So now you feel guilty because you're like, well, maybe they are just trying to look out for my own good, or and then maybe you start to. I think a big part of control too is making the person who's being controlled question their decisions. It becomes like a form of gaslighting. Oh, maybe I don't know how to pick out friends, or maybe I don't know which color looks best on me. You know what I mean? Whatever, whatever, however, they're controlling you. It can start to make you question your own ability to make decisions.

SPEAKER_01 24:58

You start losing your autonomy, right? Yeah. And you know what's crazy is it doesn't just happen in romantic relationships. It can happen in friendships. We know that. I have I've had friends, I've had friends before that didn't want me having other friends.

SPEAKER_02 25:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:16

Like, think about that for a second. Trying to manipulate and and move you out of a thought process of somebody else, not giving you the autonomy to make the decision as to whether or not that other person that they had a problem with is worth your time. I love how you just it just for everybody, because there's no video, I need you all to know that Kaitlin just put her hand on her forehead, leaned back, looked up in the air, and went, oof, because that's heavy. So now when I ask you again, have you ever experienced control, Kaylin? Yeah. And not realized it.

SPEAKER_02 25:54

I guess the thing is like, and not realized it.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Well, you just said earlier, you just said earlier, I don't put up with it. You just said earlier, I don't, I have it because it's not something I put up with. So we're not gonna go back on that statement, we're gonna build on it, and I'm gonna ask you.

SPEAKER_02 26:11

I've seen things leading up to that behavior, like people questioning why I'm hanging out with certain people or things like that. But I think what happens is I know right then that's like, okay, they're trying to control me so I can recognize it right away.

SPEAKER_01 26:28

So I shut it down just because so let's talk about situations where we don't see it right away. Can we? Yeah, because you're saying you're seeing it right away in these situations friendships, romantic relationships. You're seeing it. Let's talk about areas where we don't see it. Why don't we talk about our religious communities?

SPEAKER_02 26:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:50

Stunner right there. Yeah, that goes deep. Let's come on, give me your thoughts on that.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Well, I went to Catholic schools, K through 12. I think religion is all about control. That's like the very essence of I think at least mainstream Christianity in America. No, but I think that is a big part of mainstream Christianity in America, right? So, I mean, think about it. The the the Ten Commandments and how you should, you know, the priest or the pastor telling you how you should interpret the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

Okay, but I'm I'm gonna say this. I'm gonna say this. Certain churches and religious communities can be controlling. Yes. But I do not believe that all religions are. No, I don't think so. I think the institution is, though. I happen I happen to belong to the United Church of Christ, and I'm gonna tell you right now, they believe in autonomy. They believe in the free will and choice. Because if we think about it, that's what it teaches, correct? Free will and choice to make your own.

SPEAKER_02 27:56

Well, yes, they teach we have free will, they do teach we have free will, but there's always the threat. Like, so let's take a more conservative church.

SPEAKER_01 28:04

So take it, take it away from that though, and take it to the people within the community. Take it to the people that like to say things like you're gonna go to hell. Yeah, take it to that, take it to the people that that look at your behavior or who you are. Like, obviously, queer than a three-dollar bill bill here, guys. Okay, and you know how many times I'm going to hell in a handbasket. And heck yeah, I know it. Yeah, I've been preparing that handbasket since I was 21 years old.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Yeah, and I've had people questioning it. But they try to control I listen to that's control. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Um, it's you're not doing it right.

SPEAKER_02 28:39

I guess, yeah. I the questioning, but I guess it's the questioning in and of itself the control, the like, or is it like I guess my feeling is like if they succeed in controlling me, they're controlling me, but if they don't, they're not. But I guess there's that's attempt at control is still like a form of control.

SPEAKER_01 29:00

Yeah, that's not it is control if they're trying. But think about like when we think about religious communities, people want to be accepted because it gives them a sense of community, it gives them that sense of love, right? So you just talked about how they could like we just talked about how they could be forceful, like you're gonna go to hell, you're gonna be looked down upon, you're gonna be shunned from this community if you don't behave, act, and do these things. And I told you that I belong, I belong to a church that encourages autonomy, that believes in equality, that believes that God's still speaking to us, that believes that we move through life learning, right? It's completely different. The church I go to exhibits love. The religious community that says you're going to burn in hell if you don't do exactly as we say believes in control. They both exist within the Christian, they both exist within Christianity. I'm gonna tell you right now, they're both Christianity. Okay. But one exhibits love and the other exhibits control.

SPEAKER_02 29:58

And also in the Catholic Church, they can actually excommunicate you if you do something that they feel is real particularly egregious. So you're no longer part of the community if you don't do that.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

Do you remember when divorce used to be egregious?

SPEAKER_02 30:12

Everyone, well, most Catholics would probably be having trouble. Their divorce rate, I'm sure, is the same as everybody else's.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

Oh, I'm not gonna listen, I'm not gonna piss off the entire internet with my opinions on different religions. So we're gonna move past that.

SPEAKER_02 30:27

I went to Catholic school. I feel like I feel like I can criticize the churches.

SPEAKER_01 30:34

You want to talk about control and Catholicism. The priests. I mean, talk about control within that religion in the Catholic school. You had to wear certain clothing, you had to behave a certain way, you had to learn. Yes. I I want to hear more about your experience in Catholic school and the control that you felt while in it.

SPEAKER_02 30:52

Oh my god. Well, I was always the good student. So, like, I I guess I was being controlled, and I let myself be controlled in that environment for 13 years. So you're right.

SPEAKER_01 31:05

Was it surve? Did you let yourself be controlled or did you survive? Because honestly, you had no choice.

SPEAKER_02 31:12

No, but it wasn't like hard for me. Like, I was a good student, I was there to learn, I was a nerd. I was not a I was not a troublemaker, I wasn't like a rabble rouser, I wasn't the class clown. I was like very like studious about my work.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

We love nerds around here.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Okay, good. Do definitely, like you said, the the clothes. So, like for for girls who would wear skirt, I only wore a uniform for a very short time because I went to a second grade school after my first one closed. But okay, skirt length was a big thing. And literally, what would happen if they felt your skirt was too short, you had to sit down and they would measure from your knee to the skirt. And if it was whatever inches beyond what it was supposed to be, you either had to, well, in high school they had a box of clothes you got to pick from. That was, I'm sure that was great, but you got or you got to sit home. So your education actually got interfered with based on the length of your skirt.

SPEAKER_01 32:12

Um, let's talk about it. Which I think is ridiculous for so many reasons. Let's talk about that. Let's talk about how that's socially accepted. Do you wanna you wanna talk about how like I'm I'm asking you, do you wanna like you actually have an opinion about it? We're going to talk about about it being socially accepted. And this is really kind of where I want to go with it because when we say why do we mistake love for control? Yeah, control is so socially accepted. Think about it within our religious institutions, within our schools, within our workplaces, within relationships. We are trained and taught that somebody we like somebody should be communicating. Oh my gosh, let the let them theory, and then the whole if they wanted to, they would. I like it's never, it's never, oh, you know what? She's got ADHD. She probably saw my text messages, was in the middle of something, and hasn't had time to answer back yet, right? Or um, just busy at work. No, no, no, no. If they're not answering you within this amount of time, like right, it's almost like societally we we're we're encouraging control. Would you agree with that?

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Yeah, on some level, I think so. And especially with institutions, we put certain people in power to make the rules, and then most of us comply with the rules and we don't question them.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

And then we consider it protection, right? Yeah, and then what's protection considered? Love.

SPEAKER_00 33:49

Love.

SPEAKER_01 33:50

So we've gotten so we've gotten to this point. Do you think, and I I know I obviously you know my opinion on this because I've been talking about like my church and all of the different ways that I've been healing and learning how to love as opposed to control and all of these things, but I want your opinion. Do you think somebody can genuinely love you while still trying to control you? Or do you think that controlling you will never be love? And and if it is something that can be love, how do you fix the control in order to find your own autonomy while still trying to maintain that relationship?

SPEAKER_02 34:28

I I guess you could say it's an unhealthy form of love. I I do think people can hold multiple feelings at the same time. That's always a hard one for me. I don't ever want to justify abuse or harm to people. I think you can love and control people, but the control is not healthy and it has to be dealt with. I don't know if you can salvage the relationship. I think that's an individual thing that you have to determine. I think maybe through some therapy. And that person who is doing the controlling has to understand that some of their behavior is not okay, and then they have to work through the process of changing that behavior, which is gonna be hard because, right, we all get into habits and we all develop certain patterns, but it's not impossible to break those patterns and change your behavior. And I mean, you said you've been controlling before, and so something happened that made you say, uh, this isn't how I want to behave anymore. I don't think it, I just I'm gonna say yes, but I'm still gonna say the control is not healthy. So it's like that's my final answer.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

That's a good final answer. I agree with you wholeheartedly, Kaylin. She did not need to phone a friend, y'all. Okay. So let's give some examples, okay? Of love versus control and what's healthy and what's not, shall we? So let's start with trust, right? I might be insecure, and this is something that I learned. But, anyways, here we go, right? So I I have insecurities. I'm not going to pretend like I do not have some abandonment issues. I'm very okay with who I am. I'm very much working on myself at all times and trying to become a better person. And so sometimes trust is very hard to come by for me. And in a relationship, I think when we look at something that's healthy, when you don't trust somebody and you need a little bit of reassurance, that idea is sitting down saying, hey, I really want to trust you, but because of my insecurities, I can't. And and I I I believe that I I know I don't have any control over this, but I would really appreciate it if you would just let me know you're okay. As opposed to the control side of that without having trust, which looks more like, well, why didn't you call me back? Well, I want your location because I want to know where you are at all times. So emotional conversation with the your partner explaining why you are having issues as opposed to taking steps to constantly surveil and monitor that person. I want you to give me examples of respect, Caitlin. What's what's what's control versus love when you look at it from respect? Love, respect, control, respect.

SPEAKER_02 37:27

Oh my gosh. Oof. Well, obviously, I think if you're controlling someone, uh you don't you don't really respect them as an individual. They're there only kind of for your purpose. No, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 37:40

I want examples. I want an example of controlling somebody. I want an example of somebody who is controlling you that acts like it's respect, and somebody who loves you that's respect.

SPEAKER_02 37:54

Maybe somebody who says something like, you know, you shouldn't hang out with those people. You're just you're so much better than them. Kind of trying to turn it into a kind of making it look like you're the good guy in the situation, and your friends are but how does that show the person you're saying that to respect? That's not respect coming from. There's no respect in that.

SPEAKER_01 38:15

That's what I'm asking for, though.

SPEAKER_02 38:17

Control I'm asking for control and respect.

SPEAKER_01 38:20

No, no, you are controlling them, but it can be viewed as respect.

SPEAKER_02 38:26

Oh, well, I guess in that situation, you're you're trying to say, Well, I think you're better than these people, right? You're trying, you're kind of uplifting, quote unquote. I'm I'm doing air quotes, you can't see me. Um, you're uplifting that person in a way, right? But I can see you. Ooh.

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Um Okay, sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt you.

SPEAKER_02 38:49

So it's like you're you're you're pretending to uplift this person, but it's a control thing. You're trying to isolate them, you don't want them hanging around other people, but you're making it like, eh, you know, you're so much better than them, or you can do better. Let's, you know, get better friends, or so I don't know, something to that effect. So basically trying to convince the person almost that they're better than maybe their friends to kind of isolate them and separate them from their friend group could be one way to do it. I think that would be pretty manipulative.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

Okay, now give me a form of respect that's love.

SPEAKER_02 39:23

A form of respect that's love not control.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

I think that exact same situation. Yeah, I think a big part of respect.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

I think a big part of respect in that situation would be getting to know your your partner or your friend's friends, and getting to see who they really are, and um if you know being happy that your your your friend or your partner has people, other people in their life that support them. That to me is the ultimate in respect. That's a big thing, and that was something actually as an adult, like finally, like it was like, yeah, you want your friends to have friends. Why wouldn't you?

SPEAKER_01 40:06

So you kind of answered two questions at once because I was gonna do support next, but I think you already did that because support is respect, is support is respect, right? So we'll talk about freedom. What does freedom look like, right? That's I don't really feel comfortable with you going on vacation with your friends. Why don't you want to go on vacation with me? You should want to go on vacation with me. I don't think you're making a good job or choice taking that job. Like, what are you thinking? It's gonna take you away from me, right? Um, whereas freedom, healthy love is I know this job is gonna take a lot out of you, and I will be here for you, and I will 100% whatever you need guide you through it, right? It's the idea that I love when you love somebody, Kaylin, and me, I I feel I have a really strong suspicion that you're going to agree with me on this, not just because we're friends and I know you so well, but also because you're a great person, right? When you love somebody, when you truly love somebody, you do not love them for what they are giving to you. You love them for who they are, even if that means that you don't get to have them. You love them so much that you want them to succeed, you want to see their dreams come true, even if as we move through this life, yeah, our paths take us different directions. Yeah, right? And that's freedom. Control is saying, no matter what happens, I want to hang on to you. I'm not going to let you go. I need you in my life.

SPEAKER_02 41:49

Yeah. I I often say the biggest act of love is often letting somebody go. And that's a really hard lesson. I learned that in a very hard way, but and it can apply to many situations. But yeah, you want if you because love ultimately is wanting someone to be happy in whatever form that takes. Where I think control is I want you to make me happy by doing something that I need.

SPEAKER_01 42:20

I agree. A thousand per.

SPEAKER_00 42:25

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 42:26

So why? I'm gonna ask you this one last time. One last time. I'm gonna pull back to the original question after this whole discussion, get your new answer for it. Why do you think so many people mistake control for love?

SPEAKER_02 42:47

Okay. I think learning to truly love someone is a is something that takes a lot of time and maturing. And I think maybe anybody can control anybody, but I think especially in our interpersonal relationships, I see a lot of that in maybe younger people. I don't know. I'm not again not saying it doesn't happen with older people, but I definitely think part of emotional maturity is figuring out what real love is, and I think that's just something we have to learn as we go through life. I think when we're I don't know, I find at least for me when I was younger, I'm I'm 47, I'm six months behind you. Um but I did want to hold on to people, and I had such a hard time, I had such a hard time letting go, and now I do understand that it is okay to let go of people. It took a lot of painful practice, let's say, to learn to let go of people for a variety of reasons. Um, but ultimately you realize it's the best for everybody in the situation. And I think that I think that is I think that's love.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Why do people mistake control for love? Why do people think that those constant text messages, those nice little constant romantic gestures, the oh, he's so worried about me or she's so worried about me, they get why do they mistake all of those things for love?

SPEAKER_02 44:22

Because I think on the surface it looks like love. It's like concern, right? Are you okay? You know, where are you going? What are you doing? It it does look like love, right? I mean, on the surface. And it's attention, right? You're getting you're giving someone attention, someone's getting attention. We all on some level like attention, right? We like that somebody has made us feel important. I think a lot of people are.

SPEAKER_01 44:51

They made us feel important until they don't. Because it turns out until it becomes inevitably, usually until always. It usually always turns into abuse.

SPEAKER_02 45:00

But until always until it becomes constricting, right? And abusive and manipulative. And then we're like, oh, and we look back and we're like, eh, maybe that wasn't love. But I mean, I might text you after a couple of days of not hearing from you. My thing is proof of life. Like I just need to make sure people are alive.

SPEAKER_00 45:21

We all know that I'm an avoidant.

SPEAKER_02 45:23

So but I also see for me, and I guess again, this is like a whole maturity thing, is like, I know some people feel pressure to like answer a text. My whole thing is I can send you a text and you can answer it whenever you want. I don't expect an answer right away. I'm not that person.

SPEAKER_01 45:41

Well, I know, but that's that's normal. But if we think about society as a whole, Caitlin, the majority of society confuses. Not only do they confuse it, but a lot of us are taught that that is love. I agree. That that is how I mean, you know, we look at the relationships of the people that raised us and the people that we've been around and how things happen with them, and we find normals, normality in it. I was about ready to say that word, totally wrong. My my mouth's not working today. We find normality and those those actions, right? And it's almost kind of like we talked about last week with the toxic masculinity. It's it's almost like we're we're bred into thinking that. Like it's at some point, and that's why I like talking about this stuff, because if we could start recognizing it, right? Start paying attention. Somebody could text you good morning and good night every day. Somebody could legitimately be checking in on you because they care. Their intent is legitimate care. Where it moves from care is that when it starts interfering with your life, whenever you have to start walking on eggshells, afraid that you're not gonna do the right thing, say the right thing, where you don't feel like you can be yourself because it might trigger them, that's when it turns into control. So I'm not saying somebody is sweet to you and super attentive. I've seen cutesy, cutesy relationships like that, super jealous of them, because they're just the communication is on point and the emotional maturity is so sexy and and they just flow so well together. And they have this this partnership that is not based on having to be one, it's based on two unique individuals holding their own self, choosing to come together to form something, and then maintain and grow a connection with each other, not losing their autonomy, not losing who they are, but loving each other for who they are, and then growing with each other, which we all know as we grow, yeah, turn, we we move, we move, guys. We don't we don't stand in one spot. If you stand in one spot, you're gonna grow moss on you. You better start moving because we have to grow. We all become somebody else as we move through the stages of our life. I am not 20-year-old Wendy at 47 years old. I'm a completely different person, but there is still a piece of 21, 20-year-old Wendy and me. So as we grow, we become new people. And if you do not allow autonomy within your partnership, if you do not allow your partner to be their own individual self while you are your own individual self, and then find a way to come together and connect with very good communication, emotional intelligence, respect, acceptance, and love, it's it's nothing more than just a situation where two people are trying to control the other in order to gain something emotionally for themselves. We got to take the ego out of it.

SPEAKER_02 48:52

Well, and I, you know, I think as the moment we become kind of aware of our existence, right? I mean, there's rules. There's rules in the home, there's rules at school, there's traffic rules, there's these rules. We live it, I mean, we live in a society of rules, as crazy as the society is, and some people aren't following the rules right now. That's another story. But we do the the ordinary Joe lives in a society of rules, right?

SPEAKER_01 49:20

Listen, I don't think rules are controlling. I do not like rules controlled. No, I'm gonna tell you as a cancer, though, as a cancer work, it sets up the framework for control. It does. I'm gonna tell you something as a cancer. Never believed in rules. I don't, I, I, I, as I question authority. We don't, we we like we like our rules. I owe I question I you you become an authoritative figure in my life when you gain my respect. Period. Beyond that, why should I listen to you? What do you have to offer me? What are you what are you doing? Okay, not I shouldn't say offer, but how are you increasing the value in my life? Are you making me safe with these rules? We all know I'm right like put your seatbelt on. You're gonna get out of my car if your seatbelt's not on. Well, that's a safety rule, right? That's safety because it's protecting the people you're giving them a better chance.

SPEAKER_02 50:18

We're bombarded by rules. We're bombarded by the idea. We we we are raised with that. No, but I think it's that's the framework, right? So the control, the person who's controlling might just think, well, these are the rules.

SPEAKER_01 50:32

But it's not. So here's the deal, right? I agree. You can't just do it the a rule, like let's let's go with an extreme rule, okay? You're not allowed to murder somebody. No murdering allowed, guys. It's not okay, right? I agree. That's a rule. No, I agree. Now, let's talk about a rule that's control, okay? A rule that's control. You are not allowed to go out with so and so because I don't like them. I think they're a bad influence on you. Agree. It's not a rule though. That's the thing, is that's not a rule. That is doing nothing to protect you.

SPEAKER_02 51:14

If you think about, if you think about, you know, let's take worst case scenario, um uh uh controlling abuse of home, those are the rules, right? That's what they say.

SPEAKER_01 51:26

We do not have time to unpack my childhood, Caitlyn.

SPEAKER_02 51:29

Okay No, I'm not, no, I'm not, but you know what I'm saying? The things that we start what we start to do is we put the the controlling person puts these things out there and says, Well, these are the rules.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

They do, they do. I understand that completely. I do, I do. Oh man, again, again, we need to we need to end the episode again, Kaylin. And I don't think we've come to a resolution. No, there's never a resolution. You know what? You know what? It's okay, it's okay. We'll talk about it more later.

SPEAKER_02 51:57

Okay, we will. And I want to quick before we wrap up, I want to do a little public service announcement. So I talked about how you can be controlled and the person can still love you, but please don't stay in a relationship because you think the person truly loves you. It's okay to leave an unhealthy relationship, even if you think they have feelings or you have feelings for the person. I just want to put that out there. I didn't want to imply that you should stay.

SPEAKER_01 52:23

No, you shouldn't. And you guys, we're gonna put in the show notes hotlines, help lines that if you do feel like you're in a situation you cannot get out of, because controlling situations can actually get extraordinarily scary at times. Obviously, we saw what happened in that maternal instinct show that we watched. It can get scary, guys. And so if you feel like you're in a situation you can't get out of, but you know that it's a dangerous situation, we're gonna we're gonna pop the helplines in the show notes. Go check out the show notes, get the help. Don't be afraid to call. Take care of yourself, make sure you're safe. Okay. Thank you, Kaylin. I almost forgot about that.

SPEAKER_02 53:02

My little kidball hanging, thinking that, oh, this person loves me. It's okay. It's okay, it's always okay to leave a bad situation.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

It is always okay to leave a bad situation. And you know, we're gonna go into the final reflections on this. Which I think, Caitlin, you just kind of did, didn't you? So I'm gonna move into our outro over here. Welcome to episode two. Still trying to figure out what the fuck we're doing, but we're gonna figure it out. Don't worry, guys. We got this. All right. Maybe what's missing from the discussion is that control rarely introduces itself as control.

SPEAKER_02 53:41

Sometimes it arrives as protection. Sometimes it sounds like concern. Sometimes it disguises itself as sacrifice.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

And sometimes it feels so much like love that we never stop to question the difference until we do. Uh, until next week, guys, go ahead, give us a follow on whatever podcast format you're listening to. This if you want to reach out, our email address is outside the footnotes at gmail.com. Follow us on Substack, Kaylin. Did you get Substack up? What's the Substack?

SPEAKER_02 54:16

Up Outside the Footnote.

SPEAKER_01 54:18

And then we've got Outside the Footnotes on TikTok and Twitter. We'd love to see you guys over there. It's just a small Wii pages right now, but we also are just beginning. Until next time, guys, I'm your host, Wendy. And I'm Kaylin. Peace out.